The next OC/Organic Church Forum will be on Sunday evening, November 14th at 215 s. glenview place, Orange, CA 92868, from 7pm to 9pm.
The topic will be: "Moving On: What do to after you've decided what you're not doing."
Details:
OC/Organic Church Forum
Sunday, Nov.14th
7pm to 9pm
215 S. Glenview Place, Orange, CA 92868
RSVP: elysiansky@hotmail.com (before Friday, Nov.12th)
As usual, this will be a dialog-driven discussion and not a presentation by experts. Everyone is invited to come and share their thoughts and experience with the group and to learn from, and listen to, others as well.
Please, please, please, RSVP if you are planning to join us by sending an email to:
elysiansky@hotmail.com by Friday, November 12th.
Hope you can be there!
Saturday, November 6, 2010
Sunday, September 26, 2010
OC ORGANIC CHURCH FORUM
On Monday, October 11th from 7pm to 9pm you're invited to join with many different house, organic and simple church members for the next Organic Church Forum.
Our topic will be, "Gathering Together Around Jesus".
This will be an open dialog and discussion with members of many different local organic church practitioners.
Details:
215 S. Glenview Place
Orange, CA 92868
YOU MUST RSVP TO ATTEND THIS EVENT!
So we will know how many people to prepare for, please send an email to elysiansky@hotmail.com if you plan to join us for this event.
Our topic will be, "Gathering Together Around Jesus".
This will be an open dialog and discussion with members of many different local organic church practitioners.
Details:
215 S. Glenview Place
Orange, CA 92868
YOU MUST RSVP TO ATTEND THIS EVENT!
So we will know how many people to prepare for, please send an email to elysiansky@hotmail.com if you plan to join us for this event.
Wednesday, August 25, 2010
ORGANIC CHURCH SUMMIT - SATURDAY, SEPT. 11TH
YOU'RE INVITED - ORANGE COUNTY ORGANIC CHURCH SUMMIT
On Saturday, Sept.11th, you're invited to gather and share ideas, ask questions and fellowship with others who are either currently involved in an organic/simple/house church, or are curious to learn more about what it is and how it works.
This free event will be an open dialog style meeting. No speaker or experts will be taking the stage. Instead, we will sit in a circle and allow everyone to interact with one another.
Our topic will be, "One Size Does NOT Fit All: Different Models of Organic Church".
Various members of local organic churches will be invited, including our brothers and sisters from The Well, Vineyard at Home (VCMN), Soul Leader, The Mission, and others.
Details:
OC Organic Church Summit
Saturday, Sept.11th, 2010
From 2pm to 4pm
At St. Matthew's Catholic Church
1111 West Town and Country Road
Orange, CA 92868-4615
Hope you can join us!
For more info and to RSVP:
e-mail: elysiansky@hotmail.com
On Saturday, Sept.11th, you're invited to gather and share ideas, ask questions and fellowship with others who are either currently involved in an organic/simple/house church, or are curious to learn more about what it is and how it works.
This free event will be an open dialog style meeting. No speaker or experts will be taking the stage. Instead, we will sit in a circle and allow everyone to interact with one another.
Our topic will be, "One Size Does NOT Fit All: Different Models of Organic Church".
Various members of local organic churches will be invited, including our brothers and sisters from The Well, Vineyard at Home (VCMN), Soul Leader, The Mission, and others.
Details:
OC Organic Church Summit
Saturday, Sept.11th, 2010
From 2pm to 4pm
At St. Matthew's Catholic Church
1111 West Town and Country Road
Orange, CA 92868-4615
Hope you can join us!
For more info and to RSVP:
e-mail: elysiansky@hotmail.com
Wednesday, August 18, 2010
OC ORGANIC CHURCH SUMMIT - SEPT. 11TH
Make plans (if you can) to join us and many other house church groups in Orange County at the OC Organic Church Summit.
On Saturday, Sept.11th, a free open forum will be held for those who want to learn more about organic church. This will be a time to gather and share ideas, ask questions and fellowship with others who are either currently involved in a new testament, (organic), church, or with others who are curious and want to learn more.
This will be an open dialog style meeting. No speaker or experts will be taking the stage. Instead, we will sit in a circle and allow everyone to interact with one another as the Spirit leads.
Our topic: "One Size Does NOT Fit All: Varieties of Organic Church"
Details:
OC Organic Church Summit
Saturday, Sept.11th, 2010
From 2pm to 4pm
At St. Matthew's Catholic Church
1111 West Town and Country Road
Orange, CA 92868-4615
Various members of local organic churches will be invited, including our brothers and sisters from The Well, Vineyard at Home (VCMN), Soul Leader, The Mission, and others.
For more information please e-mail:
ochousechurch@gmail.com
Hope to see you all there!
On Saturday, Sept.11th, a free open forum will be held for those who want to learn more about organic church. This will be a time to gather and share ideas, ask questions and fellowship with others who are either currently involved in a new testament, (organic), church, or with others who are curious and want to learn more.
This will be an open dialog style meeting. No speaker or experts will be taking the stage. Instead, we will sit in a circle and allow everyone to interact with one another as the Spirit leads.
Our topic: "One Size Does NOT Fit All: Varieties of Organic Church"
Details:
OC Organic Church Summit
Saturday, Sept.11th, 2010
From 2pm to 4pm
At St. Matthew's Catholic Church
1111 West Town and Country Road
Orange, CA 92868-4615
Various members of local organic churches will be invited, including our brothers and sisters from The Well, Vineyard at Home (VCMN), Soul Leader, The Mission, and others.
For more information please e-mail:
ochousechurch@gmail.com
Hope to see you all there!
Monday, July 26, 2010
OC ORGANIC CHURCH SUMMIT - SATURDAY, SEPT. 11
On Saturday, Sept.11th, a free open forum will be held for those who want to learn more about organic church. This will be a time to gather and share ideas, ask questions and fellowship with others who are either currently involved in a new testament, (organic), church, or with others who are curious and want to learn more.
This will be an open dialog style meeting. No speaker or experts will be taking the stage. Instead, we will sit in a circle and allow everyone to interact with one another as the Spirit leads.
Our topic: "One Size Does NOT Fit All: Varieties of Organic Church"
Various members of local organic churches will be invited, including our brothers and sisters from The Well, Vineyard at Home (VCMN), Soul Leader, The Mission, and others.
Details coming soon.
This will be an open dialog style meeting. No speaker or experts will be taking the stage. Instead, we will sit in a circle and allow everyone to interact with one another as the Spirit leads.
Our topic: "One Size Does NOT Fit All: Varieties of Organic Church"
Various members of local organic churches will be invited, including our brothers and sisters from The Well, Vineyard at Home (VCMN), Soul Leader, The Mission, and others.
Details coming soon.
Wednesday, July 21, 2010
NEW HOUSE CHURCH GROUP ADDED: ESCONDIDO, CA
Solomons Porch
Escondido CA 92029 USA
Contact/Host: Greg Vasquez
E-mail: gregshouse1@hotmail.com
MAP
House Church info:
We are a new church starting, and would love to have you over for worship, prayer, to seek God and watch Him move! Solomons Porch is where the early church first met in the book of acts.
We are near Valley Parkway and Citricado. Thursday nights @ 6pm and Sunday mornings @ 9:30.
Meeting Days: Thursdays and Sundays
Meeting Times: Th 6:00 pm; Sun 9:30
Escondido CA 92029 USA
Contact/Host: Greg Vasquez
E-mail: gregshouse1@hotmail.com
MAP
House Church info:
We are a new church starting, and would love to have you over for worship, prayer, to seek God and watch Him move! Solomons Porch is where the early church first met in the book of acts.
We are near Valley Parkway and Citricado. Thursday nights @ 6pm and Sunday mornings @ 9:30.
Meeting Days: Thursdays and Sundays
Meeting Times: Th 6:00 pm; Sun 9:30
Thursday, July 15, 2010
WHAT IS A NEW TESTAMENT MODEL OF CHURCH LEADERSHIP?
The church in Corinth is a fascinating example of a church with numerous moral and ethical failures, yet when Paul writes to correct them he doesn't address their Pastor and command him to fix things. In fact, he doesn't even address their Elders or Overseers to respond to this by exercising their authority over the people. Why were the pastors, or for that matter the Elders of the Church, not commanded to exercise their authority and deal with the very serious moral failures within the Church in Corinth? Perhaps because Paul understood that the Body itself was capable of coming together to correct the problem themselves. Something he hints at when he says, "Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?" – 1 Corinthians 6:3
A DIFFERENT KIND OF SUBMISSION
I would like to humbly suggest that "Authority", and "Submission" do not necessarily imply organizational structures are at work in the New Testament Church. Submission is something that all believers are urged to do, and authority is only to be submitted to if it is in line with God’s Word and not on the basis of an office or appointment.
"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." – Ephesians 5:21
Everyone is urged to submit to everyone else. It's a shared submission among brothers and sisters in Christ who are equals and who humbly care for one another. Only Christ is the head, or the leader, of the Church.
Many are of the opinion that Jesus actually taught and promoted hierarchy in the Church, something I find alarming and dangerous. But, just for a moment, let me ask, "What would we expect to see in the New Testament if Jesus DIDN'T want His Church to be run like a hierarchy? Wouldn't we expect to see Jesus condemning this practice? Perhaps he would have pointed to a hierarchical system and commanded His disciples not to follow that example?
"Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." – Jesus, in the Gospel of Mark, chapter 10, verses 42-45.
Does Jesus command his disciples not to exercise authority over people? Yes, he clearly and plainly does. What, then, are today's pastors doing if they are not exercising their authority over their church members? Isn't this a fair question to ask? Am I allowed to point out the disconnect between what Jesus says and what His Church actually does, or does not, do?
Here, in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus points to the Roman Government (a secular hierarchy) and commands his disciples not to imitate this system of lording it over people or exercising authority over those who follow.
In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus points to a religious system of hierarchy and instructs them (again) not to imitate this system of hierarchy where the "Teacher" is exalted over the student. Instead, he says, remember that you are all brothers:
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." – Matthew 23:8-12
Next, let's look at the Apostles themselves. If they heard Jesus commanding them to avoid the hierarchical system of leadership, wouldn't we see evidence that they obeyed this command? Did they take his words to heart? Let's see:
"Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, because it is by faith you stand firm." - 2 Cor.1:24
Paul the Apostle obeys Jesus and refuses to "lord it over" those who follow Christ alongside him. Instead he works with them, as a brother, not as an authority figure.
"To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away." – 1 Peter 5:1-4
Here, Peter identifies himself, not as an Apostle, but as a fellow elder among the brethren. He then urges these elders (plural) to serve as overseers because they are willing, not because they have been handed a title or an appointment, and especially urges them to be careful not to "lord it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock" – as Jesus commanded him several years earlier.
Having said all of this, doesn't the New Testament ask that we submit to our leaders and their authority? Yes, it does. For example:
Hebrews 13: 17- "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
Let me be clear, I am not arguing against leadership here. Not at all. Every church needs leadership, and this is also clearly taught in the New Testament, however I would like to ask us to consider the possibility that leadership doesn't automatically mean top-down, authoritarianism. Jesus modeled something different than this, and then he commanded his disciples to emulate his example.
So, going back to our verse above, you might read this and ask, "What is the basis for our submission to our leaders?" Does their authority rest in the office they hold, or is it found in something else? Are we to submit to these leaders only because they hold an office? Or are we to submit to them as they point us to follow Christ? Hopefully we do not blindly follow people because they are "the Pastor" or because they have a title of authority. Hopefully.
No, the only authority we are to submit to is Christ Himself. To me, this truth is self-evident when we look at the NT as a whole.
Earlier in this same chapter, the writer of Hebrews, in chapter 13 and verse 7 says, "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith."
Here we are told to submit to our leaders as they speak the Word of God to us. Not to them as authorities in and of themselves, but as humble servants who lovingly teach us to follow Christ, and who then demonstrate this by their actual lives of faith.
Submission then is to Christ and to the Word of God. If our leaders handle and teach the Word of God wisely, and if they faithfully live lives that reflect Christ, THEN we are to submit to their authority. But only if. Their authority is not automatic and it is not based on the office they hold. Otherwise, we would be accountable to obey leaders simply because they held that office, regardless of whether or not their lives reflected Christ or their teaching of God's Word was true.
If we follow the policy of hierarchy for the sake of itself we can end up with someone holding an office within the Church and exercising authority even if they are not followers of Christ. Such a person should have no actual authority in any spiritual sense over the life of believers. What counts is character, not the office or the position. However, someone with no organizational office may, because of gifting by the Holy Spirit and sincere love for others, have actual authority to speak and teach and lead his brothers and sisters in Christ (who are his equals).
Churches that employ such a man-made organizational method can only hope to mimic the kind of leadership such as the "rulers of the gentiles" possess, something that Jesus expressly commanded us not to do - "It shall not be so among you!" - Matthew 20:25-26.
The Holy Spirit is the only source of spiritual authority and accountability in the Church through real-life relationships, not titles handed down by men.
Did the Apostles depend upon the authority of men or did they give any weight to the opinions of men? Apparently they did not. For example, Paul says, "Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody." - 2 Corinthians.3:1-2
If hierarchy was so important in the early church, why don't we see them exercising it? Why do we see them operating as a Body and not as a business? Perhaps the answers are right in front of us? Are we courageous enough to answer truthfully?
As Biblical Scholar Richard Halverson has said, "When the Greeks got the Gospel, they turned it into a philosophy; when the Romans got it, they turned it into a government; when the Europeans got it, they turned it into a culture; and when the Americans got it, they turned it into a business."
I pray we can help God's people to see that they were never intended to be run like a business, and instead to help them see that, according to the Word of God, they are simply a Family, a Body, an Organism, and a Bride.
-Keith Giles
http://www.KeithGiles.com
A DIFFERENT KIND OF SUBMISSION
I would like to humbly suggest that "Authority", and "Submission" do not necessarily imply organizational structures are at work in the New Testament Church. Submission is something that all believers are urged to do, and authority is only to be submitted to if it is in line with God’s Word and not on the basis of an office or appointment.
"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." – Ephesians 5:21
Everyone is urged to submit to everyone else. It's a shared submission among brothers and sisters in Christ who are equals and who humbly care for one another. Only Christ is the head, or the leader, of the Church.
Many are of the opinion that Jesus actually taught and promoted hierarchy in the Church, something I find alarming and dangerous. But, just for a moment, let me ask, "What would we expect to see in the New Testament if Jesus DIDN'T want His Church to be run like a hierarchy? Wouldn't we expect to see Jesus condemning this practice? Perhaps he would have pointed to a hierarchical system and commanded His disciples not to follow that example?
"Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." – Jesus, in the Gospel of Mark, chapter 10, verses 42-45.
Does Jesus command his disciples not to exercise authority over people? Yes, he clearly and plainly does. What, then, are today's pastors doing if they are not exercising their authority over their church members? Isn't this a fair question to ask? Am I allowed to point out the disconnect between what Jesus says and what His Church actually does, or does not, do?
Here, in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus points to the Roman Government (a secular hierarchy) and commands his disciples not to imitate this system of lording it over people or exercising authority over those who follow.
In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus points to a religious system of hierarchy and instructs them (again) not to imitate this system of hierarchy where the "Teacher" is exalted over the student. Instead, he says, remember that you are all brothers:
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." – Matthew 23:8-12
Next, let's look at the Apostles themselves. If they heard Jesus commanding them to avoid the hierarchical system of leadership, wouldn't we see evidence that they obeyed this command? Did they take his words to heart? Let's see:
"Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, because it is by faith you stand firm." - 2 Cor.1:24
Paul the Apostle obeys Jesus and refuses to "lord it over" those who follow Christ alongside him. Instead he works with them, as a brother, not as an authority figure.
"To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away." – 1 Peter 5:1-4
Here, Peter identifies himself, not as an Apostle, but as a fellow elder among the brethren. He then urges these elders (plural) to serve as overseers because they are willing, not because they have been handed a title or an appointment, and especially urges them to be careful not to "lord it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock" – as Jesus commanded him several years earlier.
Having said all of this, doesn't the New Testament ask that we submit to our leaders and their authority? Yes, it does. For example:
Hebrews 13: 17- "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
Let me be clear, I am not arguing against leadership here. Not at all. Every church needs leadership, and this is also clearly taught in the New Testament, however I would like to ask us to consider the possibility that leadership doesn't automatically mean top-down, authoritarianism. Jesus modeled something different than this, and then he commanded his disciples to emulate his example.
So, going back to our verse above, you might read this and ask, "What is the basis for our submission to our leaders?" Does their authority rest in the office they hold, or is it found in something else? Are we to submit to these leaders only because they hold an office? Or are we to submit to them as they point us to follow Christ? Hopefully we do not blindly follow people because they are "the Pastor" or because they have a title of authority. Hopefully.
No, the only authority we are to submit to is Christ Himself. To me, this truth is self-evident when we look at the NT as a whole.
Earlier in this same chapter, the writer of Hebrews, in chapter 13 and verse 7 says, "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith."
Here we are told to submit to our leaders as they speak the Word of God to us. Not to them as authorities in and of themselves, but as humble servants who lovingly teach us to follow Christ, and who then demonstrate this by their actual lives of faith.
Submission then is to Christ and to the Word of God. If our leaders handle and teach the Word of God wisely, and if they faithfully live lives that reflect Christ, THEN we are to submit to their authority. But only if. Their authority is not automatic and it is not based on the office they hold. Otherwise, we would be accountable to obey leaders simply because they held that office, regardless of whether or not their lives reflected Christ or their teaching of God's Word was true.
If we follow the policy of hierarchy for the sake of itself we can end up with someone holding an office within the Church and exercising authority even if they are not followers of Christ. Such a person should have no actual authority in any spiritual sense over the life of believers. What counts is character, not the office or the position. However, someone with no organizational office may, because of gifting by the Holy Spirit and sincere love for others, have actual authority to speak and teach and lead his brothers and sisters in Christ (who are his equals).
Churches that employ such a man-made organizational method can only hope to mimic the kind of leadership such as the "rulers of the gentiles" possess, something that Jesus expressly commanded us not to do - "It shall not be so among you!" - Matthew 20:25-26.
The Holy Spirit is the only source of spiritual authority and accountability in the Church through real-life relationships, not titles handed down by men.
Did the Apostles depend upon the authority of men or did they give any weight to the opinions of men? Apparently they did not. For example, Paul says, "Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody." - 2 Corinthians.3:1-2
If hierarchy was so important in the early church, why don't we see them exercising it? Why do we see them operating as a Body and not as a business? Perhaps the answers are right in front of us? Are we courageous enough to answer truthfully?
As Biblical Scholar Richard Halverson has said, "When the Greeks got the Gospel, they turned it into a philosophy; when the Romans got it, they turned it into a government; when the Europeans got it, they turned it into a culture; and when the Americans got it, they turned it into a business."
I pray we can help God's people to see that they were never intended to be run like a business, and instead to help them see that, according to the Word of God, they are simply a Family, a Body, an Organism, and a Bride.
-Keith Giles
http://www.KeithGiles.com
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